Summary
Trump plans to lift the Biden administration’s freeze on supplying 2,000-pound bombs to Israel and reverse sanctions against Israeli settlers.
Well, would you look at that, third-party protest voters / abstainers / “undecideds”: you saved Palestine. /s
Voting a third party or not supporting the system at all is the good choice here because it’s the only hope to save palestine. You do not save palestine by voting between two parties open about its destruction.
So glad they helped save Palestine, and definitely weren’t just eating up propaganda to get 🥭 reelected.
I voted for Kamala, but you have to be pretty dense to think that there is any meaningful difference between how Kamala and Trump would have handled Palestine. They’re both full-on Zionists. Giving them some bigger bombs won’t change things much. They already flatten entire neighborhoods at a whim.
If two candidates will likely both be abominable on an issue you care about, you might as well vote to hold the one representing the party that has already committed genocide accountable.
you have to be pretty dense to think that there is any meaningful difference between how Kamala and Trump would have handled Palestine.
This is just blatantly disingenuous. It is not aligned with reality. You’re either delusional or you’re pushing a false narrative intentionally.
you have to be pretty dense to think that there is any meaningful difference between how Kamala and Trump would have handled Palestine
Kamala called for a ceasefire.
Trump said Biden should “Let [Israel] go and let [Israel] finish it.” and now he’s saying we’re going to give Israel bigger bombs to do it while removing economic sanctions on Israeli occupiers.
How can you say there is no meaningful difference?
Kamala called for a ceasefire.
So did Biden. She also said she couldn’t think of anything Biden had done that she’d have done differently. There’s a good reason people were skeptical about her being any different from what’s already happening.
You realize the conversation started because Trump reversed the ban on the sale of some type of bombs which Harris wouldn’t have done, right? Because right away it shows a pretty meaningful difference.
Evidence suggests the 2000 lb. bombs were not the key factor in Israel committing genocide.
And you realize the genocide in gaza started because the government Harris was the vicepresident of backed israel with “whatever it needs”?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel–Hamas_war
If by saving, they meant “it literally won’t exist” anymore, then yeah. 2000 pound bombs are good for leveling entire city blocks.
They’ve been dropping these 2,000lb bombs in Palestine and several of their neighboring countries for quite some time now. It’s pretty odd that people are trying to act all self-righteous about this when Trump is just continuing the exact same policy that Biden was.
Trump is just continuing the exact same policy that Biden was
This article is literally him reversing a Biden policy.
This “article” is literally two sentences long and makes no reference to the thousands of 2,000lb bombs we’ve been sending Israel this entire time.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
Most of Gaza is already leveled and uninhabitable. They didn’t need 2000 pound bombs.
The IDF doesn’t need to do any of the horrific shit they do…
How many Palestinian children have died so far with democrat supplied bombs again? You think you have a leg to stand on?
“but what if the genocide rubber stamp was still blue” is not a compelling argument.
Yes leftists are the problem. Not the half of the country that willingly and happily voted for this.
Edit: Is there even any evidence that having protest voters vote for Kamala would’ve changed anything? Since I’m getting dogpiled here I want to clarify I was not a protest voter but everyone on Lemmy and Reddit keeps sharing this exact same sentiment
Both are the problem. Try harder.
Democrats are the ones that need to try harder
Not all leftists are this problem. Just the ones who didn’t vote for Kamala in an otherwise winnable state.
I agree with that.
That and one issue voters, and third party voters.
Look at her numbers compared to Biden and look at Trump’s numbers compared to his numbers last elections. People didn’t come out for Harris, which was essentially them supporting Trump as the end result is his election.
No, there isn’t. They just want to blame the left for centrism failing. Arabs and anti-war sentiment are convenient and evergreen “bad guys” in centrist politics and one that has been actively reinforced by the media since the genocide began. It’s a convenient scapegoat for an across the board failure of a centrist campaign.
And if this was actually the linchpin, then it wasn’t exactly a big surprise. The whole movement was trying to raise the issue and was repeatedly ignored.
I love that your defense here is: “Look at that, you’re just as big of a piece of shit as we are.”
But in reality, they’re objectively more moral than you are in voting against genocide. That it may happen anyway doesn’t change that.
By not voting, you voted for genocide under Trump. There is no neutrality against fascism, and there is no nonparticipation. You’re either against them or you’re with them.
Genocide under Trump vs. genocide under Biden isn’t a big moral difference. Your argument is supposed to be that the other moral issues are critically important, not that the flavor of genocides are important.
“there’s zero difference between mostly good with a little bad, and an absolute shitstorm of horrors”
“Genocide” as “a little bad” is quite the fucking choice.
A lot of genocide, a lot of oppression, a lot of revoking human rights, a lot of political persecution, a lot shifting blame, is quite the fucking choice
And Biden actually pushed for ceasefire and got one. Trump doesn’t.
And Biden actually pushed for ceasefire and got one.
A naive genocide apologist, what a shock. Israeli commentary on the right is that there’s not much reason to still be there as they’ve pretty much destroyed everything already. The time to push for a ceasefire was this time last year, and then to actually do something to bring it about. And it’s not even a real cease fire! They’re still killing people! They’re a vast distance between the things politicians say and the things that actually happen.
There are many more issues beyond Gaza. The environment, healthcare, social rights, immigration. They are complicit in all of it.
Yesterday Trump declared “War on Transgender” and his desire to eradicate transgenderism in the US. Musk threw a literal Nazi salute. They immediately put out an EO targeting trans people. Non-voters and 3p voters are complicit in this and in what is about to happen to trans people in the US.
Or course, they don’t have the moral stain of a Trump supporter but “not a literal Nazi” shouldn’t be the baseline it is.
Actually Harris voters are responsible for all of this because they heard this incompetent and unqualified person fumble through softball interviews saying absolutely nothing at all and looking like a complete fool and they all still voted for her. They all voted for a loser.
She had no policy. Every answer to questions was an evasion.
Blue maga is real.
So why should someone care about any of these issues, while you demand them to ignore the issue they care about?
Why do we accept the Democrats pitting transrights against arab childrens right to life?
Because these issues much more directly affect people in the US, and by extension, you (assuming you’re even FROM the US)
Personally I’m a trans immigrant. In part BECAUSE of protest voters, my new priority over literally everything else is my own survival. It’s not that I don’t care about Gaza, my heart breaks for the Palestinians affected by the genocide, but I don’t have energy left to devote to that fight. That is by design as a fractured population is less able to work together.
What you mean by that is they affect you. There are Palestinians in the United States, Jewish people who want to quash the wave of antisemitism this will trigger, and other Americans who would like to not ignite another wave of anti-Americanism is the Arab world.
You don’t have to prioritize the anti-war movement over the issues that are closest to your own life and safety, but you don’t get to demand that they sideline the issues that are closest to their lives for you. Solidarity goes both ways.
Is it really “voting against genocide” when they voted against all the arms shipment pauses that are now being overturned? They voted against an administration, that administration lost, and now the winner has hit the ground running making the genocide immediately worse. What’s “objectively more moral” about increasing arms shipments to genociders?
The undecideds are about as dumb as the maggots. They were told, over and over, that they were effectively voting for a fascist. But they couldn’t imagine that the leopard would eat their faces. Now, that fucking guy will make “Genocide Joe” look like a god damn saint.
The undecideds are about as dumb as the maggots.
Supporting and voting murderers with bloods on their hands is much much worst than being dumb and not voting.
Now, that fucking guy will make “Genocide Joe” look like a god damn saint.
Sound like you haven’t seen any footage from inside gaza or you would know that there’s no saints in hell.
Refusing to hold Democrats accountable is also voting for Fascism. If your vote is 100% reliable to the Dems, they don’t have to do anything to win your vote. And thus, they can completely ignore you and everything you care about. The Dems have moved so far to the right that modern Republican Fascism doesn’t seem completely unreasonable to many people by comparison. After all, Democrats firmly embraced what was far-right immigration policy just a few years ago. Democrats have made a hard turn to the right. This has forced Republicans to move even further right into Fascism. And if things continue down this path, with Democrats never being held accountable, eventually both Democrats and Republicans will be overtly Fascist.
That is what happens if a party is never held accountable.
The primaries are where the accountability should happen. For the vast, vast majority of elections in the US the winner will be either the Democratic candidate or Republican candidate. And you can turn in primary ballot without voting for any of the candidates. Your participation is then a matter of public record, and campaign managers will be inclined to try and win your vote.
edit - you can also become an actual party member, maybe even a delegate, and vote on leadership.
The primaries are where the accountability should happen.
Democrats do not run democratic primaries. It’s why they invented superdelegates and fought for their presumed right to run dirty, undemocratic primaries in court.
It’s this simple. Dems knew since their primaries that voters wanted them to stop sending WMD’s to Israel. Multiple state level primaries had double-digit percentages of voters that voted “undecided” specifically to communicate that they wanted change on the Israeli genocide.
Democrats just shrugged their shoulders and ignored it.
Well I did say should. So what is your suggestion? Vote third party? By my quick scanning of this page there’s are <45 members of state legislatures around the country, out of >7,500 total state legislators. And 2 out of 535 US Congress members. Not voting? They don’t care. That’s just less time and money they have to spend trying to connect with a potential opposition voter.
Vote third party?
Yes, for starters.
Also, do some introspection. Democrats do not support democracy. Despite all the nice things they say, they are fascists. Voting against them is a moral act.
I’ve been saying it since June. I know I’m shouting into the void. Unless you’re willing to go full Player 2 or you’re a billionaire, you have no power here.
So how do you plan to succeed with third parties in the face of the cumulative failure of all third parties combined to win even 1% of the offices? In particular in contrast to the recent increase of progressive candidates running for and winning Democratic primaries?
Also, do some introspection.
I did, and that’s why I stopped voting for any 3rd parties in 2016. I had voted for candidates from all parties prior to then. Because they can’t win a large enough scale without electoral reform. And we won’t get that by losing all the elections.
they are fascists. Voting against them is a moral act.
So if we’re getting fascists either way (because again, the winners of >99% of elections around the country are going to be either the Democratic candidate or the Republican candidate), wouldn’t voting to prevent the ascension to power of the racist transphobes who are publicly voicing their desire to detransition transgender persons and denaturalize and deport citizens be the moral thing to do?
I’ve been saying it since June. I know I’m shouting into the void.
And I assume people like me have been responding to you the whole time. And your voices were enough to lose the election for the rest of us. So not much a void.
willing to go full Player 2 or you’re a billionaire
Sorry, I don’t understand the Player 2 reference. And since you don’t appear to have been paying attention, the billionaires are all winning now (they wanted Trump, they got Trump).
Refusing to hold Democrats accountable is also voting for Fascism.
They really are out here pretending that Genocide Joe didn’t enthusiastically help Israel stack corpses for the last 15 months of his presidency, literally down to the final day.
Yes, “held accountable” because you can’t imagine a world in which geopolitics means you can’t just cut off all support to an ally with an “or else”.
The only thing worse than the morons too stupid to see that Trump is going to do what he says, are the morons who think that you can just drop all aid to Israel overnight and nothing will happen. Do any of you have ANY idea how intertwined both our military and tech sectors are?
The only thing worse than the morons too stupid to see that Trump is going to do what he says, are the morons who think that you can just drop all aid to Israel overnight and nothing will happen.
That’s one of my favorite excuses for Democrats breaking promises and/or doing nothing: It’s hard. (As if we shouldn’t expect the people we elect to do hard things.)
And yes, when Israel wants more WMD’s to perpetrate a genocide, I would expect a conscientious president or legislators to do something about it and say no.
They said the same thing about Apartheid South Africa. You think it was easy to cut ties with them? They were also tied into our military industrial complex.
And I find the argument “but it’s going to be haaard” despicable.
Do you think apartheid ended overnight?
You’re mistaking “it took a long time to end Apartheid” with “we shouldn’t even try to end Apartheid.”
Huh? What do you think my position here is?
Negotiations to end Apartheid took 6 years (1987 to 1993)! The US started placing sanctions in 1986, and the transition away from Apartheid didn’t start until 1990. Apartheid wasn’t fully ended until 1994.
They said it was hard to cut ties with them, and they were right. Global politics is harder than, “just do it.” Biden didn’t solve the genocide in a year, but he was working with a more difficult situation than just cutting off money/weapons. If he does that, then every country around Israel starts taking advantage of it and he has a much bigger situation to deal with. I don’t agree with how little Biden did to stop the genocide. I don’t agree with Harris not being vocal about putting even more pressure on Israel. But there is more at play than just “don’t send weapons.”
You’ll notice that started with sanctions. “There will be a long time between pressure and results” isn’t an argument to not start the pressure.
Voters weren’t expecting Biden to issue a complete trade embargo with Israel. What they were expecting was for Biden to FOLLOW US LAW and stop shipping arms to Israel, a country flagrantly violating law. There is a universe of possibilities between “stop sending Israel bombs on our dime” and “turn Israel into Cuba.”
Reagan threatened Israel with cutting off all aid, unless they play ball. And they did.
Without the US supporting Israel its other allies would also abandon it quickly.
So all the US has to do to make Israel do what the US says is withhold support until Israel obeys.
What Biden did instead was throwing the US to the feet of Israel, at best rambling and making token gestures. So the US halted 2.000 pound bombs? That surely didnt stop Israel from annihilating people in Gaza with the other bombs the US kept delivering.
That’s a good point. My vote was pragmatic over principle. The dems need to be held accountable, but they won’t. There needs to be a major overhaul of the party, but realistically I don’t see that happening any time soon. For the foreseeable future this is what we are stuck with.
That whole be the change thing is horseshit in this day and age.
So hold them accountable for literally any other office besides president when the opponent is a literal fascist?
So never?
Are Republicans going to stop being Fascist at any time in the foreseeable future? They ran a fascist in 2016, 2020, and 2024. And they have a long line of potential future candidates.
“Don’t hold them accountable while running against a fascist” == “never hold them accountable.”
And there’s no point in going after officers other than the president on this issue. It’s not like governors have much control over foreign policy.
Refusing to hold Democrats accountable is also voting for Fascism.
As mentioned oh, so, so, so many times, voting for the least worst option doesn’t preclude holding them to account. That part comes after, once democracy is assured.
Except, people voted for cruelty and fascism to really stick it to the Dems. Now there’s worse fascism and no democracy.
Good job.
Feel proud.
That part comes after, once democracy is assured.
LOL, sure Jan. Did we just watch the same Biden presidency?
holding them to account. That part comes after, once democracy is assured.
How are you going to hold them to account after? Theres zero correlation between what the public wants and what the government does. The only moment you have any importance at all is for that one brief instant you vote. Thats all you get in our fake democracy. So I think you’re being dishonest.
That part comes after, once democracy is assured.
When, precisely, did you expect that day to come?
Holding those in power accountable is a continuous process. It doesn’t just happen on a specific day or another. Politically active and concious people protest and raise awareness in an ongoing manner regardless of who is in power. The world didn’t end on 5 Nov 2024 or 20 Jan 2025 - fighting for democracy will never stop.
You would know this if you actually put your money where your mouth is, as it were.
And how, precisely, did “holding the Dems accountable” work out after 2016? Did they “learn their lesson”?
They very much did actually. Biden shamelessly just cribbed much of Elizabeth Warren’s economic policies. Hillary’s loss in 2016 forced him to run on a much more progressive platform in 2020 than he ever would have otherwise.
So all we have to do is leap towards fascism every other term to get baby steps to the left? Doesn’t seem very sustainable.
Both Trump and Harris were pro Israel. Why are third party voters getting gaslighted for Trump’s actions. I didn’t vote for him. And Harris would have been more of the same. Worse/better doesn’t matter. Both backed Israel and sending weapons.
Living in a world without nuance would mean experiencing life in a stark, black-and-white manner. Every situation, person, and idea is categorized as purely good or bad, leaving no room for complexity, shades of meaning, or understanding of different perspectives; A world where everything is simplified to extremes, leading to misinterpretations and a difficulty navigating more complex situations and interpersonal relationships. If worse/better doesn’t matter, there can be no difference between killing 1,000 people or killing 100,000 people.
Keep telling yourself that, buttercup.
Both of them are pro-Israel, but only one of them is sending Israel 2,000 lbs bombs. How can you not see that that is flatly worse?
That’s true.
And only one of them has overseen the wholesale destruction of Gaza by originally supplying thousands of 2,000 lb bombs plus BILLIONS of DOLLARS of other weapons that were used in the genocide.
And only one has negotiated a ceasefire.
Which one of those two is flatly worse?
Pop Quiz: which party is the only one to have a Palestinian-American respresentative in Congress?
You guessed it, the Democrats. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashida_Tlaib
Pop quiz: how many democrats joined republicans to censure Rashida Tlaib?
22!
How many people joined in Tlaib’s protest as Netanyahu was given standing ovation after standing ovation while addressing congress?
ZERO
Democrats really got your back.
Hehe. As planned. Thanks to people who refused to vote for Kamala. Leopards don’t see political parties, all faces taste the same.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
Can you explain what’s changed?
What’s changed is all hope for cancelling weapons to Israel is gone. Kamala, while certainly not a great option, could at least be pressured.
You were foolish to have hope in the first place because if tens of thousands of innocent children getting blown into little pieces wasn’t enough to stop weapon sales, nothing is. Thinking that Harris “could be pressured” is just magical thinking because she, nor Biden, had any intention of stopping their aid to Israel to the point that they were willing to hand over control to the Republicans rather than even saying anything negative about Israel’s conduct and their participation in it.
Are you simply a troll? If everything is hopeless than why do you pretend to care?
I didn’t say “everything is hopeless” I said that Biden, Harris, and Trump were never going to do anything but aid in this genocide.
“You were foolish to have hope in the first place”
This is the trolley problem. Harris was the path of less suffering, simple as that.
Well, you’re not wrong. But Trump will make things over there (and locally) significantly worse in the long run. Yes, worse than it is now. All the while talking about progress, and how much better things are.
In the end, all the land will be handed over to Israel, and developers will turn it into a resort town. Anyone left alive will be a servant to the wealthy.
And my hope was “could be pressured” as opposed to “no chance in hell.” We cut our nose of to spite our face.
Whoa whoa “Genocide Joe” where did you come from where did you go, where did you come from “Genocide Joe.”
Crickets
He was entirely unfit to hold office and ruined the democrats chance of winning the election
Next question
As it turns out, there are about 2,000 pounds of difference between Republicans and Democrats.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28
WASHINGTON, June 28 (Reuters) - The Biden administration has sent to Israel large numbers of munitions, including more than 10,000 highly destructive 2,000-pound bombs and thousands of Hellfire missiles, since the start of the war in Gaza, said two U.S. officials briefed on an updated list of weapons shipments.
Between the war’s start last October and recent days, the United States has transferred at least 14,000 of the MK-84 2,000-pound bombs, 6,500 500-pound bombs, 3,000 Hellfire precision-guided air-to-ground missiles, 1,000 bunker-buster bombs, 2,600 air-dropped small-diameter bombs, and other munitions, according to the officials, who were not authorized to speak publicly.
Hope that helps!
Yea but at least we don’t have GeNOCiDe JoE and that damn BlUemAgA in power!!!/S
Gaza: fucked.
Immigrants: fucked.
LGBT: fucked.
Democracy: fucked to death.
Totally real internet “leftists”: совершенство
Seeing the replies (the ones defending the democrats) I am wondering how you American manage to breathe without dying?
I am honestly convinced that most of you are incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.
Careful of projection
I am just here waiting for the “Free Palestine” folks to show us the way with some real radical activism.
Of those of us that voted, whether Harris, Stein, De la Cruz, West, etc. - everyone we voted for lost. The candidate you voted for was also complicit in genocide, whereas ours wasn’t. We failed as a collective. If we could take every single one of those votes, and coordinate them towards one candidate, the best scenario would NOT be Harris, because she’s a fucking lying psychopath. That’s not even radical, this is civics 101 - you have a fascist movement you want to defeat, organize, find the best path, follow the best path, in unison. Not some middling ass piece of shit war criminal that the television told you was the top choice.
After Genocide Joe and Holocaust Harris, we have Destroying Donnie. Too bad #destroyingdonnie won’t be amplified by Xitter like the previous two was, to try to sway voters.
Make no mistake if they think twisting the algorithm is going to make the voices of the left less disruptive they have no fucking clue what it is like to fight people who believe in their beliefs because they ernestly think they will help and save people.
We were going at Biden and Harris with kid gloves on because we knew Trump was going to be much worse, but the kid gloves are off and leftists will do everything up to and including dying for what we think is right… because we aren’t full of shit like the cowards in power are.
I dare them to kick us out of social media conversations, we are just going to become more radicalized into taking direct action instead of asking nicely.
My empathy DEMANDS action. I’ll lose my mind otherwise.
Fascists will never see you coming out of the night in your acts of resistance because to predict your actions consistently requires actually understanding what makes you tick, and to do that requires recognizing at some level that you have something they do not, integrity in your beliefs, whereas their mental landscape is a barren monoculture of childish hate and bullshit.
I’ve been masking since 2020, neighbors think I’m pro Trump, oh if they knew…well if they knew, i’m sure my windows would be gone already.
“Oh your flag on your truck got stolen last night?!! what scum!” 😱
Doing the right thing is the one thing that bullies will never understand
Hilarious how the comments are blaming the group that wants to abstain or be central in their belief when the play was already set in place regardless of the outcome. Class war yet we bite at each other.
To the Muslim MAGA voters, that’s 2000 lbs, multiples, of Fuck Around and Find Out.
Trump has delivered a ceasefire that was always clamored for.
You mean the ceasefire that came into effect at 9:15 GMT, before Trump was in office? How did he do anything?
I can’t find the will to make a leopards/faces joke about this. This is exactly what we told people who wouldn’t vote for Harris because of “gEnOcIdE jOe” bullshit.
Biden made real efforts to prevent the Israeli government from committing genocide. They failed, but they tried. Now we’ve got an absolute monster in charge who is going to outright empower the genocide.
If you voted for Trump, voted for a third party, or refused to vote… FUCK YOU. You own this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel–Hamas_war
The previous government allowed this genocide to happen, the current government is making plans to keep it going. Perhaps you will now understand what people have in mind when they say that both parties are the same and to look for alternatives.
This is exactly what we told people who wouldn’t vote for Harris because of “gEnOcIdE jOe” bullshit.
What that things would continue on as they have been for well over a year now? Where is the “leopards ate my face” aspect of this?
Biden made real efforts to prevent the Israeli government from committing genocide. They failed, but they tried.
What efforts were those? Strongly worded phone calls and “red lines” that were constantly crossed and redrawn, while simultaneously standing alone in blocking UN and NATO resolutions against Israel?
who is going to outright empower the genocide.
Can you explain how a genocide that we’ve been actively supporting for the past 15 months is now being “empowered?”
The article is literally stating that Trump is giving the green light to giving Israel more powerful bombs to genocide with, and also to give Israeli West Bank occupiers their access to US financial resources again.
We’ve already been giving them these bombs.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
Your link is published in June of 2024 and states:
The Biden administration has paused one shipment of the 2,000-pound bomb, citing concern over the impact it could have in densely populated areas in Gaza, but U.S. officials insist that all other arms deliveries continue as normal. One 2,000-pound bomb can rip through thick concrete and metal, creating a wide blast radius.
Here’s a link from July of 2024
The U.S. in May paused a shipment of 2,000-pound and 500-pound bombs due to concern over the impact they could have in Gaza
I can’t find anything saying we resumed shipment of 2,000 pound bombs in the remainder of 2024. So it seems to be true Trump is now reversing Biden’s [since May 2024] policy of withholding these bombs.
It also states that Biden sent over ten thousand 2,000lb bombs before pausing that single shipment. I don’t understand why you’re trying to split hairs here as if it makes any difference (irrespective of the 500lb bombs continuing to be shipped, the $20 billion shipment of fighter jets, bombs, and missles in August, and the $8 billion weapons shipment he approved two weeks ago).
I don’t understand why you’re trying to split hairs here as if it makes any difference
Because this comment thread is about whether Trump’s actions are empowering the Israelis. It’s apparent to me that most people are using a different definition of empowering than I am.
- to give official authority or legal power to
- Something that is empowering makes you more confident and makes you feel that you are in control of your life
Even though these actions don’t have a large practical impact on their military capability, or financial means, it does send the message that Trump isn’t interested in placing even performative restraint on Israel. Thus, he is empowering them to do even more.
The occupiers are the state of Israel. Biden had some very limited sanctions against specific extremists who weren’t also Americans, but no one in their right mind thought that was somehow stopping the occupation.
The occupiers are the state of Israel.
Yes, that what I said, though I can see how the ordering of my words could be ambiguous.
Biden had some very limited sanctions
And Trump is removing them. Therefor Trump is, in an objective and literal sense, empowering those people subjected to those sanctions by removing sanctions that Biden had put in place.
Those sanctions didn’t actually do anything about the occupation. It’d be like sanctioning some random ultra-Z Russians rather than their leadership or institutions and acting like it’s curbing the occupation of Crimea. A few specific Israelis couldn’t bank with the United States, but they can just route through American-Israelis in their ranks instead. Them specifically banking wasn’t in any way important to the occupation.
Lifting the sanctions by Trump is bad, but more on the symbolism than the impact.
Trump could have said hey this sanction isn’t working, we need to strengthen it so that it does. But he instead said get rid of this sanction entirely. I get that you’re saying “well it didn’t really work and they had access to it anyway.” I do. But by your own account they had to go through extra steps to get it and now they don’t. That’s empowering. Even if just in the psychological sense that they now get to think “hey Trump is doing things to make it easier for me to keep occupying this land.” They now know that Trump is aiding them, so that gives them a greater sense of purpose and power to continue. And now they get more of the bigger bombs with which to do it.
This is just such a minimal impact it’s hard to get worked up about it. It’s wrong and it’s bad and it’s worse, but we have not lost a force for good in losing Bidenism. Bidenism with respect to Israel was evil. And Trump is eviler, but on this issue, there’s really not much worse it can get. On many many other issues Trump is incomparably worse, but no one should pretend Biden was in any way a bulwark against genocide and occupation.
This very story demonstrates it. In a raft of reversing Biden policies, the only things he could do for Israel was unrestricting a single bomb and removing some token sanctions. That’s the sum of Biden’s efforts to restrain Israel.
He’s approving one shipment (Israel has been using 2000 pound bombs since October 7th and I haven’t heard anything about them stopping after that shipment was paused) and lifting sanctions on the four West Bank settlers Biden had sanctioned. This will only hurt Palestinians about as much as the original moves by Biden had helped them, which is to say: not at all.
From Oct 7 2023 to Jun 28 2024 (the date of the reuters article that is being posted) we had shipped thousands of those bombs. We paused a shipment in May of 2024 (stated in that reuters articale), and here’s an article from July of 2024 saying we still had not shipped any of them
And I’ve found nothing indicating we have sent any more 2k pound bombs since May of 2024. So if we had, please provide a source reporting it.
Perhaps we should try to agree on what empowering means, though:
- Something that is empowering makes you more confident and makes you feel that you are in control of your life
- to give official authority or legal power to
Trump’s actions are empowering the genocide because they are clearly supportive of both Israel’s bombing and occupation.
And I’ve found nothing indicating we have sent any more 2k pound bombs since May of 2024. So if we had, please provide a source reporting it.
Apparently there haven’t been any shipments since may, so my bad there.
Trump’s actions are empowering the genocide because they are clearly supportive of both Israel’s bombing and occupation.
I mean the problem is that this doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. You either do things or you don’t, things like empowering or slamming or come to Jesus moments are all rhetoric and rhetoric only matters when it starts affecting the real world. We’ll have to see if the ceasefire holds; if it does then it makes sense (in US foreign policy terms, I of course hate it) for Trump to continue shipments, if not then we can start talking about leopards eating faces. The settler sanctions had zero effect on the real world, so they don’t matter no matter how “empowering” lifting them may be.
Biden made real efforts to prevent the Israeli government from committing genocide.
Okay I don’t have the energy to refute to this stuff anymore, so lemme just ask: Do you seriously believe the president of the united states, the single largest benefactor of Israeli regional hegemony, doesn’t have the ability to enforce its own laws and prevent violations of international law by its protectorate?
It’s a much, much more complicated situation than you’re presenting. Biden was trying to thread the needle between “deny Israel weaponry” (end result: Opportunistic invasion by Israel’s neighbors) and “give Netanyahu all the weapons he wants” (end result: what we’re about to see with these gigantic, city-block-destroying bombs).
How would you do it?
Biden was trying not to die in office, he was clearly incapable of tying his shoe laces, let alone stop any conflict.
You do not live in democracy, go cry about how trump ruined your life while oligarchs are controlling your whole state.
How can you be so blind?
what we’re about to see with these gigantic, city-block-destroying bombs
About to see?
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
You can tell these people aren’t paying ANY attention. Still talking about “Trump is going to destroy Gaza”. Gaza is fucking destroyed. It’s a pile of smoldering concrete and asbestos rubble with the bones of women and children in splinters beneath it.
Oh, it’s the “but what about the Jews” argument. You do realize Israel’s whole problem with its neighbors is their treatment of Palestinians, right? If Israel can’t stop its apartheid and make real.peace with their neighbors then they deserve to get invaded. Their apartheid state isn’t worth more than the at least 200 thousand Palestinians who died in Israel’s genocide. I’ll also point out that Israel has the most advanced military in the region, so the idea that Israel can’t resist an invasion is wrong.
Do you think Israel should be destroyed?
Edit: Interesting. No one is willing to say “no.”
Here’s the thing: What Joe Biden tried (and yes, failed, because Netanyahu is a corrupt madman) to do was simultaneously support Israel’s right to exist and defend itself, and do what he could to minimize damage to Gaza.
Now we have a “president” who will gleefully help Netanyahu destroy Gaza entirely and take over the land. You’ve gone from someone whose friendship to Palestine was tepid to someone who actively wants it destroyed.
This isn’t an upgrade.
What if I told you that all states built on nationalism are illegitimate.
Do you think Israel should be destroyed?
You types always phrase it “destroyed”. What does that mean? Should the state dissolve? Yes. Should it be bombed with a nuke? No. Should there be equality in the region? Yes. Radical take I know.
Do you understand the difference between an imaginary social structure ending, and millions of people being killed? Like, if a company goes bankrupt and dissolves, does that mean all its employees are killed, in your mind? Or are we just mindlessly going with the racist imperial narrative of “if we don’t genocide them they’ll genocide us the first chance they get”?
do was simultaneously support Israel’s right to exist and defend itself, and do what he could to minimize damage to Gaza.
Here’s the actual thing. This was the PR line ran by the Biden administration as they violated domestic and international law to send billions of dollars in arms to a genocide. There is no legal “right to exist” under international law, for any state. There is a “right to self-defense” but that right doesn’t exist in the context of an illegal military occupation (the occupation of Palestine) - the “right” in that scenario is the right of the occupied people to resist. That’s not a hypothetical “right”, that’s an enshrined legal right under international law. The same way that if Canada or Russia or whoever invaded the U.S. and stationed troops for 57 years, we’d have a right to take up arms against them. The equivalent in that situation, for the “right” that you think exists, would be the “right” of the invading Canadians to mass murder American civilians based on the (unsubstantiated) rationale that militants are hiding underneath churches, hospitals, elementary schools, water treatment plants, etc. Also known as “no holds barred genocide”.
The Biden administration knows this. Biden knows it, Blinken knows it, Matt Miller knows it, Kamala Harris knows it, Vedant Patel knows it, Linda Thomas Greenfield knows it. This is a case of “they are incentivized to forget it”. Also known as “the lowest depths of human evil”. The fact that YOU haven’t noticed this is the entire problem - you, and the other Democrats, and the Republicans all. To us, you are hardly different - the Republicans just a little more stupid.
Yeah, why not? Again, apartheid states don’t deserve to exist. Also I’ll note that this is not the same as “should Israelis be all mercilessly slaughtered”, that’s a different question with a different answer.
Its not complicated at all when multiple international human rights organizations credibly found Isreal was committing war crimes and the US already has a law preventing the sale of arms to nation’s credibly accused of war crimes. Biden was the cheif executive all he had to do was execute a law that was already on the books. Neither the SC nor Congress would have had any say.
Stop carrying water for genocide financiers who had every opportunity to do something different.
That’s not an answer, and I’m not “carrying water for genocide financiers.” I never once excused or denied Israel’s behavior. Netanyahu responded to a horrendous terrorist attack by turning the dials on “horrendous” and “terror” up to 11. He’s a monster and a war criminal and should spend the rest of his life in prison.
Now then, how would you do it? Put yourself in the president’s shoes. You need to come up with a solution that allows Israel to continue to exist and not be destroyed by, say, Iran… AND allows the Palestinians to survive. Cut off all weapons, goodbye Israel. Give Israel a blank check, goodbye Palestine. What do you try to do?
I gave you the solution, it is an answer. Follow the law as written, Israel is not above the law. You keep jumping through hoops to say we can’t follow the law and then claim you don’t carry water for them? Fuck all the way out of here with that cognitive dissonance, you’re practically hasbara.
Genocide Joe
Biden did not try. Palestinians were doomed either way
Okay, so even if Biden didn’t try what good did voting for Trump or not voting at all due for our country and or Israel?
What? Biden didn’t try. You don’t have to vote for trump or not vote at all, to understand that.
This article is literally about one of Biden’s efforts to rein in the violence. He did try. Now go ahead and excuse Trump freeing up 2,000-pound bombs for Israel, and how that’s better for Palestine than it would be if Harris had won. Good luck.
He also bypassed congress twice to give billions of aid to Israel. Nobody is excusing trump freeing 2000 pound of bomb to Israel
“We tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas” energy. It’s almost if Palestine was doomed either way. Heck of a lot cheaper to not send bombs to Israel
Lying about Biden trying “nothing” doesn’t make it OK that you carried water for Trump.
Now that is a lie, anyone who thinks Biden actually tried to stop the genocide is either not paying attention or flat out lying. Not everyone who opposes aiding an active genocide carried water for trump. Believe it or not you can be vocal about being against trump and genocide
This is a very simple trolley problem. Do nothing and the Trump train runs over a lot more people. Vote fore Biden and a lot less folks will day. Arguing for the Trump trolley (which you are doing) is foolish.
The setup is correct, but calling the problem “very simple” just means you don’t understand the trolley problem.
If you think that what I said was in support of trump, you are part of the reason trump is in office again. There is no trolley; there be only genocide or we’re sorry still genocide
He did not “try.” This is just a weak attempt at whitewashing recent history.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
Delivered without landing?
Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Biden already lift them?
He blocked the 2,000 lb. bombs and the 500 lb. bombs. Then he lifted the restriction on the 500 lb. bombs.
I thought he slightly delayed one shipment? At one point I recall Biden removing the restriction as well. I am genuinely wondering whether there was even still a restriction on 2000 pound bombs since Biden recently sent another 8 billion in bombs to Israel.
This was exactly the point of him doing it like this. Notice your confusion on the specifics. People hear about the restriction, but not the lifting. Creates a fog of ambiguity, US media doesn’t report on the actual arm shipment statistics, Democrats get the illusion he’s actually doing something good. Meanwhile, the bombs he sent were enough to demolish Gaza - and did. Already. I think the last statistic was “88% destroyed”, though that’s from memory.
88% destroyed is such a weird ass nazi dog whistle. Not about you, just ironic. Of course it’s 88%.
Gotta be something in between 87 and 89. I don’t know, that was the last stat I heard ~yesterday morning.
I don’t doubt it, I was just referring to the irony of 88. Don’t get the downvotes.
Because you’re calling that statistic a Nazi dog whistle, and that means you’re saying it’s fake / fabricated and pro-Nazi propaganda somehow. It may not be what you intended, but it is the meaning of the phrasing you used.
After sending fourteen fucking thousand of them.
Good thing all those “Genocide Joe” voters abstained from the election
Something bad could have happened to those Palestinians
Good job
Getting that Final Solution to the Palestinian genocide.
It did totally and completely under his watch. Gaza was holocausted under the Presidency of 1 Joseph Robbinette Biden Jr. Aka Genocide Joe.
He gave them over 14,000 (FOURTEEN THOUSAND) 2000lb bombs that they used to flatten Gaza. There are ample pictures. Go look. Go look at the bad GENOCIDE JOE did to the Gazans in the name of America.
Or did you only start paying attention to Gaza when Trump was inaugurated?
careful dude, you’re on .world
and now it’s about to get even fucking worse. it was a choice between kamala harris and fucking trump. Yeah, both suck. But one of them will actively make things way worse.
88% destroyed.
If you drink 88% of a glass of water and someone else drinks the other 12%, who had more water?
you think it’s going to stop at Gaza? Guarantee, israel will destroy the west bank next. and trump will provide even more weapons than biden ever did.
You may be correct, but maybe now the TDS democrats will join the rest of the anti-genocide movement because their guy isn’t overseeing the genocide anymore. They have the bad guy they want now.
Or they are going try to mock and belittle people who didn’t fall in line to vote for with THE WORST PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IN HISTORY who clearly had no intent to stop the evil destruction. Their imaginary scenarios become the dogma they are blinded by.
i actually agree with you. the dems are worse than useless. they do literally nothing and field garbage candidates and wonder why they lose. we need a better party.
Trump is already president again. That next paycheque isn’t coming for you, lol
Oh, quit pretending like you care. If you did, you would support the only party to have a elected as Palestinian-American, and you would listen to what she has to say. But instead of supporting her, you glazed for Trump.
November 8, 2023
22 Democrats join Republicans in a successful vote to censure Rashida Tlaib.
The whole house gave Netanyahu standing ovation after standing ovation while Tlaib sat there in protest. That’s some incredible support.
Do you know anything about the situation at hand or you grasping at straws here?
Oh, quit pretending like you care.
Quit projecting your callousness onto others.
Do you realize that this kind of statement spits on solidarity with anyone but cynical centrists?
I don’t know if you actually understand how much you isolate yourself.
Do you think this is going to make conservatives like you who hate palestinians?
Do you think this is going to make people more progressive in their politics than you like you?
Perhaps you believe you are the voice of some less vocal silent majority and those people will find solace in your words? (where I don’t know)
For awhile maybe they will but you are on a quickly disappearing sandbar…
Honey, the thing is when you scream into the void like this with nothing but acidic cynicism, people begin to back away in disgust.
I didn’t know Lemmy already had bots
this is your response? seriously?
