- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
Summary
According to the Telegraph, a leaked confidential Trump peace plan delivered to President Zelenskyy has caused panic in Kyiv.
The proposal would grant the U.S. half of revenues from Ukraine’s resource extraction and licensing, effectively amounting to economic colonization.
The Telegraph noted, “Trump’s demands would amount to a higher share of Ukrainian GDP than reparations imposed on Germany at the Versailles Treaty, later whittled down at the London Conference in 1921, and by the Dawes Plan in 1924.”
Simultaneously, the plan would absolve Russia for its invasion that has caused hundreds of thousands of deaths.
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What I am most curious about is how long ago Trump and Putin first had a discussion about this arrangement, and what the quid pro quo details are. Because of course there is one.
You see, this is how Palestinian, resistance groups, and all colonized countries feel when Europe and North America made sure to suck the living resources out of them, making them cheap labour if they decide to escape their land.
In this case, Trump is treating Ukraine the same way they treat south america and other small nations.
If this will happen expect Americans to die in terrorist attacks.
Just FYI, Europe if you’re liistening, if something were to happen and AF1 were to crash, killing Trump and everyone on board, we’d be totally fine with that.
Have we forgotten that Trump has no power in Ukraine. All this means is that Europe has to provide a bit more funding.
Honestly, not even that much.
Keep fighting Russia without the US. Tell Trump to pound sand.
Not really feasible. The US has intelligence assets, spy satellites, AWACs, munitions spare parts, etc. that Europe can’t easily replace or doesn’t hold the rights to distribute to Ukraine without US consent.
There is a reason the US doesn’t have universal healthcare.
The US has enough money for both universal healthcare and our obscene military budget, we just choose to only have one.
[edit: responded to the wrong comment. Moved]
I guess my comment here would be that you may not have either of them soon. Trump has talked about cutting military spending in half. He is certainly not going to spend that on healthcare.
Ukraine is already struggling immensely with the US support. Imagine what will happen without US support.
The US has not really done all that much. That said, as above, others would have to step up.
But the US has mostly been sending old stock and then replenishing their own. All the money they claim to be sending is being spent in the US.
And anything actually new has been very, very slow rolled. Canada made the mistake of piggy-backing purchases on US orders. Air defence systems Canada fully funded (money to the US) in early 2023 are only being delivered now.
That’s not quite accurate. The U.S. is the country that has provided the largest support to Ukraine. Congress has voted $175 billion for Ukraine. About half of that was sent to them and the other half was spent domestically to help them.
The biggest problem is likely to be Trump ditching the sanctions on Russia. Or even becoming a customer of Russian energy.
Ditching the sanctions is likely considering they harmed the hegemony of the USD.
Or US supporting Russia.
If Ukraine says no, Trump’s going to double down on the “it’s Ukraine fault” narrative and start supporting Russia to promote “peace”
Knowing what’s really going-on, in this world, as unconscious-mind’s imprint->reaction mind tries to smash all considered-reasoning from having ANY say in the world, aka The Great Filter,
I’d not be surprised if Trump threatened to outright-nuke Ukraina for disobeying his agreement with Putin.
People are fools to think that sociopathy-psychopathy isn’t running the world, now, calling the real shots.
The fascist-nihilist network actually wants all others butchered, & they want to have fun during the roller-coaster-ride as they preside-over/enforce it, as the ruling “kings”.
NEVER mistake an opponent playing a negative-sum-game ( nihilist-sadists, e.g. ) for an opponent who is playing a zero-sum-game ( narcissists ), or an opponent who is playing a positive-sum-game ( win-win alliance ).
Fatal folly is worthless, as “strategy”.
Oh man. He doesent care if he has power in a country or not, he just tried to free the Tate bros in Romania.
He just feels like the king of the world. We should not validate this feeling…
Until recently the US supplied a lot of weapons to Ukraine. That did give US official opinion a lot of weight.
Since Trump and his Republican followers have stopped all aid to Ukraine this influence has evaporated. Why would you care about the opinion of someone who has literally just left you to die?
So many assasinations in world history, they really arent that rare of a thing.
Who had Trump and Putie collude to Own Ukraine on their Fascist Dictator Bingo cards?
That’s the free space
I had “Ukraine is fucked” as the first thing on my list of outcomes if Trump won the election. Does that count? 😔
Credit to Putin, it’s a good play. The only counter is for Europe to unite against both Russia and the current US government.
Theoretically possible, but unlikely unless the non-EU states also fall in line early.
Imagine telling Americans during the second red scare, about the political climate of today. History is weird.
The reality is that the EU states are falling out.
What we have to realize is that, if this were WWII, the one playing Germany is now the US.
The lesson from WWII was that you do not appease the aggressor. Europe has to oppose the US. It does not matter how difficult that seems. They have to.
If not, Trump is not stopping at Ukraine. He will make demands of all of Europe while tariffing and cutting his own European defence spending the entire time.
The time to stand-up to Trump is now.
Back Ukraine. Stand up to the US. Russia is contained as long as we find Ukraine. The USA is not.
Do it. Fuck US.
No, don’t Fuck the US. I dont want to pay for Trump and kins sins.
Just fuck Trump, Musk, and the republican party and its support/propaganda network.
I will gladly endorse having foreign forces enter america to arrest these traitors to humanity, to take them to the hague for trial and execution.
As an American, we are all going to suffer and the earlier the better. Time and time again we see that the only way Trump supporters change is if they are personally affected. Thus we all need to pay in order to see change.
Too many people think that everyone in the US deserves to suffer just because 23% of us voted for the Orange Shitstain, and that’s if you believe nobody “found” him some extra votes.
Do you know how many Germans voted for Hitler’s party in 1933? It was 26.4%.
Too many Americans think the rest of the world can afford to think of Individual Americans right now.
The USA is attacking other countries. What individual US citizens think about that is irrelevant unless they can stop him. If they cannot, the rest of us need to treat the US as a single entity and defend against it accordingly.
It’s because 51% of you didn’t vote against him.
More than that, the numbers I keep seeing thrown around are that Harris got 75m votes, Trump got 77m, and 90m didn’t bother voting.
Strange way for the US to concede their defeat. (One more!) But to each their own.
Well, Europe needs to grow a pair and tell Trump to fuck off. We need to accept that he is leaving Nato, and European countries need to take it over or set up a new organisation. He can make any deal he likes with Russia; Europe and Ukraine can just tell him no and show him the true limits of his power. He cannot dictate to Europe and he is not our president.
But all leaders have to be on the same page.
And then this needs to be agreed upon once again so that the current president of the european council makes a clear statement.
If they got the balls the transition period will take some time I suppose.
This is what is leveraged currently, imo.
But this isn’t mostlikely the entire world dynamic… Idk.
Europe is not united enough. Lot’s of states deal with their own rise of fascism. It’s depressing.
Leaving Nato drastically increases the chances he attacks Canada and attacking Canada will cause a civil war. 100%
If Trump takes Canada, he better occupy it and not integrate it politically.
Adding 40 million people to the US population without representation seems unlikely. With representation, that many people with Canadian opinions will mean no more Republican House or President for generations. Are the 10 provinces getting senate seats? 2 each? Never another red senate if that happens. Electoral College votes?
Honestly, he is going to add the second largest country in the world as a single state? Good luck.
Will 51st state Canadians be able to move to other parts of the US? Because just the snowbirds already there would turn Florida, Texas, Arizona, and Nevada blue overnight.
the 51st state thing is tabloid level headline nonsense
there is no way it would happen peacefully. , it would only happen after a military invasion or a coup backed by the US. Abandon any idea of Canada becoming a state, it would be occupied territory without legal representation and likely very few if any rights. and it would remain that way for at least a generation or two before any small “new states” were carved out, and collaborators would be allowed to rule over small regions for the interest of keeping the peace. after a healthy amount of colonization of American loyalists, murder of Canadians and imprisonment of dissidents. but all in all. make no mistake, it would be a shooting war, and it would certainly cause civil war in america too, as this is a red line.
you need only look to Eastern Ukraine to see how this sort of thing plays out.
Armed coercion, military invasion, fake referendums, importing migrants to replace the dead and evicted with "colonists’. suppression , imprisonment and murder of locals who dont swear fealty. etc.
And this is the problem with “America first.” Those who are the most selfish inevitably find themselves alone and miserable.
I really hope Europe starts making some moves.
From the moment he won the election until now we’ve seen a lot of world leaders attempting to make nice with him and appease him. It should be clear now that he cannot be appeased nor will his ego ever be satisfied. He is going to take and take and take until other countries start telling him no and laying out boundaries that they’re willing to strictly enforce if need be.
In the US, there seems to be little understanding of the situation in Europe, which can create false hope. Europe is dealing with the same shit as the US, it’s just way behind. But it’s going the same direction.
Also, Europe is not enough of a united entity. There are still national states, it’s easy to stir up nationalistic moods. And in many European countries, pro-billionaire populists and far-right parties are getting to power.
I wouldn’t say there’s no hope at all, but let’s look at the real situation.
Did you leave it intentionally vague wether you were talking about P or T? I kind of find it nice how it fits both, how similar they are.
Nah that wasn’t my intention. It’s true that they’re similar, but I’ve mostly been watching American politics.
As an American, it scares the hell out of me, but I agree with you.
They need to embargo us.
Make the US economy absolute dog shit so the GOP gets nuked in 2026. There’s enough GOP Senate seats in play to remove Trump from office in early 2027.
I actually agree with you. I think there needs to be a global summit right now. Every country but the US is invited.
We need to figure out how everybody can stop buying or selling to the US immediately. We need to reflow trade to make that happen.
Yes, it will be painful. But, in my view, it needs to happen.
In Canada, the public discourse has finally caught up with this. We’ll see how long Europe takes to get past the denial stage.
It’s beginning, i hope it grow strong enough because it will take a few years of pain before we emerge stronger. I doubt the majority of Canadian have a strong enough resolve now. We can easily be divided.
After JD Vance’s little trip to Europe, a lot of European countries are beginning to consider the US to be an adversary.
I like to think that the majority of Americans also think of the Musk/Trump regime as an adversary.
It very plainly is an adversary to any country that values freedom.
So basically 1939 again, with Ukraine playing Poland, and you all know who the US are playing.
It would be a grand historical irony if the country that ultimately ensures Ukraine’s freedom from Russia ends up being Germany.
“We are here to liberate you from the Russians…and this time, we really mean it!”
I mean, you could argue they’re more like Fascist Italy. The parallel with Germany is mainly that they’re already a great power.
The parallel is the country that Europe either appeases or opposes.
I hope they get it right this time.
Playing the role of Nazi America.
USSR betrayed Poland, and conquered them in a nutshell
The entire world betrayed Poland. The Allied powers didn’t do anything for months. Hell the British and French actually put more effort into helping Finland against the USSR than help Poland against the Third Reich.
Why would anybody expect a genocidal empire to stop another genocidal empire? They’re the same thing.
Ukraine should have allied with palestinians, the global south, and other people resisting invasion and colonization by empire(s).
Why would anybody expect a genocidal empire to stop another genocidal empire? They’re the same thing.
Nations don’t cooperate/conflict over how many similarities they have (although that makes things easier), but over how much their interests are aligned. It is well possible for two genocidal empires to oppose as adversaries, e.g. Nazi Germany and Soviet Union, the latter being proud of stopping the former.
Another example, colonizing empires fighting over their colonies. Neither did so to free the colony of the oppressor, but to become/remain that oppressor. You can imagine these empires as much the same as you like, they can still have conflicting interests (as in who rules the colony, not wether anyone should) resulting in fights up to World Wars.
Ukraine should have allied with palestinians, the global south, and other people resisting invasion and colonization by empire(s).
How would that have helped them, apart from moral feelings? How many tanks, artillery systems, intel or even humanitarian aid would that have provided? Aren’t the proposed countries more receivers of such things than donors?
I’m almost expecting Trump to come out of the “special meetings” with Putin with the result that unlike Ukraine, Russia agreed to pay up, so the US will now deliver weapons to Russia and, of course, drop all sanctions.
The Telegraph noted, “Trump’s demands would amount to a higher share of Ukrainian GDP than reparations imposed on Germany at the Versailles Treaty, later whittled down at the London Conference in 1921, and by the Dawes Plan in 1924.”
This is an extraordinarily bad move.
I’m glad to see steps taken toward the war ending, but this is the sort of Big Mac diplomacy that’s just patently moronic. Trump seems to think he can just order up what he wants and it’s going to magically happen without any negative consequences.
Even if you’re a world superpower, there’s only so much you can demand of another country. The Iraq embargo, for instance, gave rise to Al Qaeda and the eventual destruction of the World Trade Towers. (And that was the SECOND attempt, after a group of terrorists tried to bomb them previously in the 90’s.)
The Iraq embargo, for instance, gave rise to Al Qaeda and the eventual destruction of the World Trade Towers.
This is a racist narrative that relies on the assumption that Arabs have no control over themselves and “they’re all the same”. Also relies on the false narrative that Saddam Hussein supported Al Qaeda that was promoted during the build up to the Iraq War.
The reality is that Al Qaeda were enemies of Saddam Hussein, because not all Arabs are the same person. And a psychopath like Saddam Hussein doesn’t want other psychopaths around as competition.
Try to see past American exceptionalism and understand that not everything in the world is defined by it’s relation to the US.
The Iraq embargo, for instance, gave rise to Al Qaeda and the eventual destruction of the World Trade Towers.This is a racist narrative that relies on the assumption that Arabs have no control over themselves and “they’re all the same”.
Nah. Even if we assume (which we do) that Arabs, like any other group of people, aren’t all the same, and that they do have (partial) control over themselves, like anyone else … the decisions and fates of a sufficiently large number of them can still be influenced by a sufficiently large external influence, such as revoked access to international trade. Sometimes in chaotic ways. Heck, if billboard ads work in influencing people, it seems difficult to believe more intrusive changes to people’s lifes would have no effect.
Since the article already mentions it, for example Germany between the WWs. The height of reparations was helpful for nationalistic and ultimately again militaristic groups in Germany to gain power. Not as an automatism, not as a justification, simply recognizing a statistical causality. Peace isn’t equal peace. What’s a foul peace worth? We need conditions which support a stable and peaceful coexistence, not plant the seeds for the next war.
Osama Bin Laden literally referenced the sanctions against Iraq in his fatwa justifying his attacks on Americans.
But okay. Thank you for your response and your insights.
Bin Laden would say anything to get recruits. Fact is, Al Qaeda had a lot of operations going on against Saddam Hussein.
But okay, believe everything a mass murderer says. That makes you a very enlightened person LOL
I’m quite certain that this deal is intended to be unpalatable to Ukraine - it was cooked up by Trump and Putin after all.
Either way they win:
Ukraine takes the deal: they win; Ukraine says the deal is ridiculous and walks away: then Russia & Trump brand them as unrealistic agitants and delay for more favourable terms and extend the war.
this deal is intended to be unpalatable to Ukraine
Oh, I get that. Still pretty stupid.
Like I simply could not believe he thinks he could add that. Even the most tyrannical warlords of the past didn’t demand that much tribute from people they conquered. The Mongols and Romans would blush at this shit.
It doesn’t matter if the USA promises liberation from Russia, protection for eternity and the cure for cancer… the word of the USA means less than nothing now…
Ukraine has the same chance of benefiting if they just help that poor Nigerian Prince and use the resulting reward to buy weapons
the word of the USA means less than nothing
now…
