A recent event led me to fact check something that I thought must be untrue, which is that Ukraine conscripts people into the military against their will, including making those people that had previously fulfilled their obligations return to the battlefield.

Moreso, when browsing X recently I saw bunch of videos being posted of what claimed were police forcing people into vans to go fight in Ukraine. The police were beating these people in the process. Now, it is possible that some of this content is propaganda, but I did want to find out if Ukraine forces conscription.

It appears that it is true:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Ukraine

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/lacking-manpower-ukraine-resorts-to-harsh-means-to-force-draft-dodgers-into-combat

I am very much against conscription. I still support Ukraine’s independence, but the fact that they are forcing people to fight through beatings, arrests, etc. is sickening to me and makes me lose respect for Zelensky. According to an estimate by Ukrainian commanders, 50% to 70% of Ukrainian conscripts are killed or wounded in their first few days in combat on some areas of the front.

What are others thoughts on this?

  • John Richard@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
    72·
    24 hours ago

    But are you aware that Russia has had multiple rounds of conscription? Have you considered that many of Russia’s hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers were not properly supplied and used cynically as cannon fodder against Ukraine - and were therefore obviously deployed under some form of duress? Either as prison convicts or press-ganged off the street in poor remote parts of the Russian Federation that nobody in Moscow cares about.

    Yes, am I’m not okay with that either. I’m not okay with conscription in Russia, Israel, South Korea, Ukraine or anywhere. I find it odd that I say I’m not okay with conscription, and you and many others chime in with things like… “Did you know Russia has conscription?” Do you think Ukraine should be more like the authoritarian dictatorship in Russia, is that what you’re trying to say?

    Let’s remind ourselves who is the aggressor here, and who is responsible for the vast majority of the war crimes in this pointless war that could end tomorrow if Russia called off its illegal invasion.

    I agree with this, but it is a bit beside the point in regards to conscription. Russia should call of its illegal invasion, but Ukraine should also not be involved in forcing people to go to war against their will else get kidnapped/beat/jailed or worse.

    In the light of all this, why would you be so concerned about the aggressed party’s respect for legal procedures as defined under its own laws?

    Prob because forcing people to war through kidnappings/beatings/jailing/etc is human rights violations IMO and one wrong doesn’t justify another. Have you read about internment camps in the US before? Do you think those were justified cause Japan was the aggressor?

    Perhaps it’s time you stopped watching this “bunch of videos” and starting getting your information from reputable sources instead.

    I already explained I assumed some of them could be propaganda, but I did additional research & posted 2 links that include plenty of additional reliable sources. Are you suggesting now that PBS is not a reputable source? Or that Ukraine doesn’t do conscription? It turns out many of those things in the videos actually DO happen. I assumed they were propaganda, but it turns out that this is really happening.

    • JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world
      75·
      24 hours ago

      It’s no secret that Ukraine has conscription. It’s a country at war, because it’s been invaded. Wartime rules therefore apply. This is also why the election has been postponed, automatically and legally. Historically, many countries have had peacetime conscription. The UK had it until the 1960s for example, France’s until the late 90s.

      Ukraine had conscription for only for 27-and-overs until recently. It’s now 25.

      None of this is a secret.

      Since you seem especially concerned about the moral aspects of the subject, and cite scandalous abuses, the question is unavoidable: why you are so exercised by Ukraine’s situation when Russia is far, far, far worse on all these fronts? It’s odd.

      • John Richard@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
        65·
        24 hours ago

        Since you seem especially concerned about the moral aspects of the subject, and cite scandalous abuses, the question is unavoidable: why you are so exercised by Ukraine’s situation when Russia is far, far, far worse on all these fronts? It’s odd.

        Ukraine is supposed to be the democracy. Forced conscription is not something that I believe democracies engage in. What if Ukraine started requiring women to have one baby a year, and if they refused, they force bred them. Would you be okay with that?

        • Jagger2097@lemmy.world
          52·
          22 hours ago

          Are you an American male between 18 and 25? If so enjoy your forced military service. Failure to sign up for the selective service is punishible by a $250000 fine or 5 years in prison. It’s also a requirement for student aid or federal employment. Democracies have conscription too

          • John Richard@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
            43·
            22 hours ago

            But I have bone spurs and my parents are rich. Also, what part of me not being okay with conscription anywhere do you not understand? America isn’t a true Democracy at this point, more like a corporatocracy mixed with oligarchy. We’re also heading towards, if not already there, authoritarianism as well.

            • Jagger2097@lemmy.world
              51·
              22 hours ago

              I’m really unsure of what your goal here is. Conscription is terrible and shouldn’t be needed, we all agree on that. It’s incredibly common at least for defense. I am genuinely curious about how many societies don’t have it in one form or another.